INT: Television City, number one show, NORMAN LEAR, number one guy, CARROLL O'CONNOR, JOHN RICH, number one actor and director. What's it like? Not to mention JEAN STAPLETON, SALLY STRUTHERS, ROB REINER. The anchor, 8 o clock, Saturday night? GS: Its like going to heaven. In every good way, its...NORMAN embraced you. He was exciting to be around. I think he still has that energy today. Really, he decided exactly what he wanted to say and do. He didn't want to be funny, he wanted to say something and he did. I think all of the writers and producers were in concert. CARROLL laid back a little, he never embraced the character until further along. The first couple years he thought they were going to kick him off the air. Took him a while to get into basic character, but he was so wonderful.

INT: It's interesting, based on an English show TILL DEATH DO US PART that NORMAN bought. But he made it more about his life than anything else. Remember that the first 13 airings were run by CBS with a disclaimer?
GS: It was. First time I saw it, it aired late, 10 or 10:30. It had a crawl for 30 seconds. Did not represent views of CBS. Watch it at your own risk. I remember being at central control, watching it for the first time. I laughed out loud, it was very funny. But they were doing material I thought you could never do on television. You could never approach those subjects, say those things. Things you hear on the street but not in a public arena.

INT: And CBS at the time, FRED SILVERMAN head of programming, BOB WOOD, old KNXT was president, convinced PALEY who was head of the network that they had to put it on the air and lived with it until it became this gigantic hit?
GS: Who'd have thought it would. BOB WOOD was a button down sales guy. Most popular general manager at KNXT, and because of his personality they moved him to the network. He and FREDDY SILVERMAN changed the face of television. At the time the network was doing fine. All those shows that were erased over the 2 or 3 years were all in the top twenties. BEVERLY HILLBILLIES, GREEN ACRES, all the mainstream shows were all changed to reflect the urban environment we were coming into.

INT: Let's talk about our friend JOHN RICH. Giant talent, giant temper?
GS: One of the things I always tell people, I tell this to other stage managers, I say whatever you do never lie. He could see a lie a mile away and call you on it. Once he called you on it and could see you lied and covered it up, that was it you were gone. We had a situation, my first year. I can go back and tell you about the first week, but this one situation, we were doing pick ups on the show that JOHN directed. It took place on an outside set. We had to strike it down after an hour. It was a premium, sets were up for the day. Only on stage for two days. Load in on Wednesday. Shooting on Friday. It was a scene at this restaurant. Soup had to be poured for atmosphere people. One of the people was JACK SHEA's wife. My prop man would poor the soup, but it was taking a long time to get everything poured. And when JOHN wants to go he will yell, yell at you. Initially over the head set, then it got louder, and he would have some smart alek thing. He barked at you and told you how stupid you were at the same time. We did this pick up. It should have taken 15 or 20 minutes, took an hour. We finished it, he comes sauntering down, calls me over. Says what happened. We were slow. He says I know. What happened. It was my fault we didn't get the soup on time. That was it. My prop man thought he would help out, went to JOHN and began to tell him a story about why it wasn't there. He knew it was a lie. That prop man was gone the next week. I remember clearly, that's one of the things you don't do. If you screw up you screw up, take your lumps.

INT: JOHN, along with many other talents, had a low bullshit quotient?
GS: Very low. He said so in the interview. I think that's why he liked me. I didn’t have the wherewithal to bullshit. I could tell him what I liked to do, what my experience was, what I had done. What I liked and saw in my future, what I wanted to pursue to achieve. Liked that I was straight forward, that he could play jokes and I could handle that. Even when it was embarrassing. He would apologize and say he is terrific. [INT: Nothing is off limit to the guy.] Nothing. I was the commander of the planes that came over Pearl Harbor. [INT: To this day you are one of his favorite people.] I think so. He is one of mine. My wife had an experience with him, she remembers him yelling at her. I said the difference is JOHN gave me a career. He took a chance on a guy he didn't even know. I look back now, he really took a chance on a guy who wasn't part of the mainstream community. I was Japanese. He made me a part, an integral part of the family. It gave me my start. He always told me, I don't know if you want to direct or not but you just have to ask questions when they come to you. If you don't ask you will erode your importance. He is right, you have to ask those questions. Put it out there and say what if. That's all he wanted. He was great.

INT: It's like studying sculpture with Michelangelo, he was the guy?
GS: It was. In rehearsal he dominated the rehearsal. Today, if he was what he was like in ALL IN THE FAMILY, today there wouldn’t be any prima donna actors. Because, CARROLL was as tough as they come. He was brilliant, if you found funny he could find funnier. There was a one upsmanship and he would get to a point and walk out. JOHN would bring him back in, but JOHN ran rehearsal. Ran it like I've never seen it run before. I used that as a template, certainly when I was younger while working on shots. As we will talk later, when I worked with JIMMY KOMACK, I taught him what we did on ALL IN THE FAMILY and he tried to integrate it on other shows. He tried to read two scripts on the first day. He allowed constant tweaking during the week with actors and director. Enough so you are able to play with the material. You could actually work the show. Find what the original intent was and work it enough so you understood it which you are never able to do anymore today.

INT: Let's talk about the booth for a minute in those days. It was a central, everything happened in there, but the show they did was the show they did. It wasn’t today where they were slating the cameras. There was a line cut, and one ISO, correct?
GS: I believe when I started there were no ISO's at all. The show was the show. If you missed the cut you missed it. Four cameras, we wanted a close up camera. And we had a lot of the show built in the living room. A lot of sit down, eating at the table. Four people, we needed those angles. JOHN, BOB LAHENDRO was the AD, became co-director because BOB was instrumental in helping JOHN get into the four camera look. BOB understood comedy so it was terrific. Technical director was LES VAUGHT, been at Television City for hundred years, later joined NORMAN'S company as a technical advisor when they went to METROMEDIA. NORMAN DEWES was our audio man. Been there from the time we left television. [INT: That's important because these guys had to keep up with JOHN.] Absolutely. Those guys saw the show for the first time on the Thursday. Given the shots that morning by the AD. In those days there were no shot numbers. The ad was describing the shots. It's a hold a hold a hold, standing two shot. He would describe it. If the show went great, all you heard in the booth was the AD calling the shots, telling the cameras when to break. JOHN would snap his fingers, yell at the actors as we were going.

INT: How important was that, the show was all about Archie's reactions and Edith's. If those cameras weren't there the shot was lost, no we will get it in editing?
GS: Exactly right. If you were editing and a few frames late on the shot, on the air show we did two shows. A 5:30 and 8 o'clock. If you were late you were in trouble. Couldn't edit. [INT: Did the scenes once?] We did the scenes once, the conceit was it was a play in front of the audience, it was non stop. One episode years later that I did was "The Rape of Edith Bunker." Most exciting show I had ever done. Completely like a play. We didn't stop between act one and act 2. The most exciting show I've ever done.

INT: Talk about that show, who wrote it do you remember?
GS: Honestly I do not remember who wrote it, PAUL BOGART directed it. Different style from JOHN, another giant. First three years, WES KENNEY did fourth year out of DAYS OF OUR LIVES, good friend of JEAN's. Actually WES I never liked the way he shot the show, I used to tell him all the time. He shot it like a soap opera, a lot of motion to the camera. He would use the same camera for a master as he would for a single. Why don't you design it so you don't do that. He always told me first time you direct I will be all over you. I became the AD the second season I was there, BOB LAHENDRO became co director. He worked cameras, JOHN staged it. Worked the floor. He had to spend more time in the writing room than he would have available. He and BOB were in concert, give him camera notes, what he would have given anyway. For the most part, BOB had his look. But going back to the rape show that was an extraordinary experience. That was when the characters were living next door in the old Jefferson house, and it was Edith's fiftieth birthday. She is alone, baking cookies, everybody else is over at Mike and Gloria's. She is getting cookies together and the beginning of the show there was a guy attacking women in the neighborhood. So she doubled up the door. Knock on the door and DAVID DUKES played this role. To this, he said he remembered every moment of what that experience was like. He remembered the rumbling in the audience when he was clear he was the rapist. He comes in pretending to be a cop. Walks in the door. She allows him in. He double locks the door and you know. The end of the first act is he pins her down and undresses her. My god they hated it. In the second act is she is taking her clothes off and smell some burning. Her cookies are burnt. He comes in, wants to get her back, grabs a cookie platter which is hot, puts it on his face, he gets burned, we were going to have her go out the back, diminishes what we know the audience is feeling, we had her run across the living room. Such a cheer for her. We were doing this pretty much live. It was exciting.

INT: Groundbreaking television. When you think of as you said earlier shows that altered the face of television, ALL IN THE FAMILY. Bigotry was openly discussed, the first time those attitudes were examined, conflicts between Archie and ROB REINER. JEFFERSONS living next door, SAMMY DAVIS JR show, the list is endless.

INT: Talk about the difference in style between PAUL BOGART and JOHN RICH and what went into your little book from each of them when I do direct?
GS: It's interesting, my whole experience in this kind of television was JOHN and the way he saw something. He used the long lenses, lot of flat looks because he thought comedy played best. I thought that was the way to shoot. My resentment with the way WES shot it was I couldn't get it out of my mind that that was the way to do comedy. WES was doing a version of it that was less funny for me. Or missed some of the beats. JOHN rarely missed a comedy beat. You knew what the result would be. Right after, before I worked for PAUL, I did the WELCOME BACK KOTTER pilot with JIMMY KOMACK and I ended up pretty much camera directing that show. JIMMY staged it, didn't have a clue how to shoot it. what I would do is move when I was with him and put down camera shots. He took all my suggestions, all my shots, I ended up doing it. He learned how to snap his fingers. I set up, the KOTTER pilot, the presidium style shooting. When I worked for PAUL, the very first time I worked with PAUL, how does this go here? We have camera night, going through. He is finishing writing them down, he has these huge wide masters. He has extremely tight close-ups. When you take a master of any sort, you put it way up set. He also liked to shoot from a low position. It was totally different. You had television like you were looking through a window, playing out the scene. The other you were inside the room. They were both terrific to watch.

INT: Probably a little bit of a product of their background, JOHN RICH came out of live television?
GS: Well PAUL was a puppeteer. He came out of live television in New York and one of the things he used to pride himself on doing was he used to take a camera and design the blocking in such a way that he used that one camera exclusively. He would see how long he would stay on that camera, pretty much the way HITCHCOCK would stay on the camera. PAUL made the blocking work in such a way that it was all one camera. That was his experience. I used to get him to add shots because I would set up the cameras in such a way that he would say oh yea lets go in. But if it was only him, he also would play things off of people's faces that JOHN did less of. But they were, the kind of comedy the first four years was Archie was a raging man, outraged against the world. Fighting back as opposed to killing himself. Archie when he got to BOGART was kvetching Jew. He was a complainer, in pain. That was the difference between two men. JOHN had this rage he had to get out. PAUL had this complaint. It was fascinating.

INT: Was there distinct difference in styles between WES KENNEY, JOHN RICH, and PAUL BOGART in terms of their interaction with the actors?
GS: In JOHN's it was much more confrontational. He and CARROLL were always at odds. Always trying to make the show better. It wasn't at odds just to be at odds. He would take JOHN's suggestions and trigger a suggestion of his own that was funnier. Then JOHN would have to improve that. They would improve themselves until they forgot where they started. CARROLL said I didn't want to bother anymore. [INT: Did that lead to JOHN leaving the show?] It did I think. JOHN I think thought it was a struggle. He was producing and directing. He was needed more in the writing room and then these ongoing conflicts with CARROLL. Apparently before I got there CARROLL went to NORMAN and said its him or me, he is making me crazy. NORMAN said CARROLL I have to be honest, it's you. That was pretty much it, he said he is my director. I may be wrong but I don't know there are that many guys out there who are going to say that. That was NORMAN'S decision.

INT: So then eventually he does go, WES KENNEY comes in for a year, what's he like?
GS: He was nice, talked a mile a minute. JEAN had known WES from college. Apparently he went to school with her husband at CARNEGIE MELLON. WES ran DAYS OF OUR LIVES, this was his first foray into prime time television. He was a sweet guy, good guy. I'll tell you a story about what happened to me, but he got along with the cast. I think CARROLL didn't think he knew what the funny was, he was bright enough to know some comedy but he didn't know comedy quite the way JOHN did. he didn't know how to mine the moment. he needed the actors to do it themselves. course this is four years down the road and they could do that. I think JOHN directed it better. I think the kids liked JOHN better. SALLY and JOHN clashed, because his complaint was there were very few lines to play with. most of the time she was saying oh daddy. what would happen is she would do crossword puzzles, it would drive JOHN crazy because that was in the rehearsal hall and it there was no way to escape.

INT: So comes in PAUL BOGART?
GS: Comes in, and PAUL was CARROLL'S suggestion to HAL KANTER when he was producing. You know, a powerhouse. HAL knew PAUL too. He was in some ways perfect. When they first saw what he did, there were some shots you had never seen before. There were these wide angle, bowling alley shots of the room. You never saw the room look that way, and not flat. It's not the way you perceive the room to be. It was a dramatic way of looking at the moment. [INT: Did that come from BOGART'S involvement in the feature world?] It definitely did. What he liked to do with the cameras, he liked them low, wide angle lenses, it's all of that. There was different. I worked with him the second year, but it was great fun.

INT: Now where are we in the booth these days, are we slaving for camera's yet?
GS: No we went to single slave, the middle of my first season ADing, my second season there, we went to a single slave which meant we had to pick out who was better on dress and better on air. We figured out CARROLL ends up drinking the beer on show he is supposed to be drinking on air, so he is not as good on air as he is on dress. We figure we will put CARROLL on dress, JEAN was better with an audience. And it was switchable slave. But it was hard. Not only are there 280 shots, but you also have the slave camera that makes it confusing. We try to limit as much. That is how we started. Then we went to two slaves the following year.

INT: So BOGART'S rapport with CARROLL is better?
GS: Great rapport, never any arguments, the arguments came between CARROLL and NORMAN. Norman didn’t want to give up the grousing that the character had, the anger. CARROLL wanted to give it up. He got a little tired of playing it, a little worn out in front of the audience. He always requested stand ins, requested it without an audience. But we stayed with an audience for 8 years. He was wrong. He was wonderful, there was just a lot of pressure. I know that now. Especially when you did two shows, they seemed like two different shows. It's not like today. You don't do it four times in front of an audience and move on. You do the same thing all the way through.

INT: By the end of the run were you slaving all four cameras?
GS: The last show I did with him, we were still using two slaves. It's funny when JOHN did a pilot with DANNY ARNOLD which was BRIAN MILLER, one of DANNY'S complaints was why can't I use four cameras. He said because it will cost you. I didn't have it because I didn't have that ISO at the time. So they had this huge war about it. DANNY, the way he was, he reshot JOHN. JOHN took his name off the credit. [INT: And created the style of shooting that DANNY brought to BARNEY MILLER.] Right. Masters and close ups from the same angle. Never had a flat angle camera. When I worked on FISH, you had to learn how to shoot that stuff. He used BOB LAHENDRO on a couple of shows, he didn't shoot it that way. He shot it conventionally. DANNY went crazy.

INT: So ALL IN THE FAMILY went 8 seasons?
GS: 8 seasons, then the end of the 8th was when ROB and SALLY were moving to California, I didn’t do that one but it was a phenomenal show. [INT: How many years did they do ARCHIE BUNKER'S PLACE.] We did four seasons. The first, JEAN did maybe a half a dozen episodes. ROB and SALLY I don't think did any. Then JEAN left. She liked the audience, didn't have an audience. The show missed something. NORMAN wasn't a big part of the show. He didn't want this to extend out, he felt the show was over. It was CBS and CARROLL. CBS went to him and said we would like to continue the character. It became centered on the bar. They had a house element because they had his Jewish niece who he adopted. But that wasn't the central part of the show.